Surviving To Thriving with Lisa Thompson and Libby Rapin

This week it's all about FUN here at HTC, and joining in on the conversation are Lisa Thompson and Libby Rapin, the co-founders of BluWave Wellbeing and experts in the Science of Play.

From the physical and mental exhaustion that commenced in their own journeys, to rediscovering childlike wonder, Lisa and Libby are dedicated to helping leaders develop a playful mindset in order to reduce stress and burnout, build resilience, and equip them with the tools for better wellbeing through the Science of Play

With a combined 20+ years of experience leading Human Resources and Corporate communication teams, the ladies had helped organizations triple in revenue and impact - and man was that impact felt when we spoke with them.

Connect with Lisa and Libby👇






Conversation with Lisa Thompson + Libby Rapin

*Text has been edited for clarity.

Calla: So honored that you're here, first of all, because we got your message that you guys were interested in coming on. And we were so curious what the science of play meant and all these things, and it was like very in line with what we tried to do here at HTC network. So again, thank you for being here. Um, I do want to kind of start out really quick, though, and just hear how you two came together.

Lisa Thompson: Huh? Oh, well, I'll take this one. So it was actually back in 2018 and felt like the fall and so I, I was running on nonprofit, I still run a nonprofit but I was running a nonprofit at the time and Libby's name continued to be shown up in my life, people would be like, You need to meet with this person, and I would get this person's card. It's so interesting how it all came. I was very burnt out and exhausted in my corporate job at the time. So people would give me this girl's card and I'd be like, Okay, I'll connect with this girl. And like, I didn't realize over time that the Libby was the same Libby because I was so burnt out and exhausted. I didn't realize that all these people were telling me to meet with the exact same person. And then I was doing a photoshoot for my nonprofit and Libby was actually supposed to come. Again did not put the just the connection together that it was the same Libby.

Leanne: Were you like, "Wow, so many Libby's out there!"

Lisa Thompson: It's so funny, so long story short, we connected. And we just chatted on the phone to start. And from there, we just created this beautiful friendship. And then in January 2019, I left my corporate job. And so around that time and Libby and I met for coffee and like had a full conversation from there, we started a YouTube channel. And then since then, we've really pivoted, I would say, and evolved as a company and as friends.

Libby Rapin: It was kind of by mistake.

Lisa Thompson: Totally.

Libby Rapin: We just had similar passions to bring awareness to mental health and to teach the things that we do, which I'm sure we'll get into. And so the YouTube channel then turned into Lisa, I think you got it, you're like, there's this business pitch coming up, do you want to submit us for it? We had no concept paper, no business executive summary or anything like that. So we made this idea for what aspirationally we would love to build, and we ended up getting third place. And we submitted for another one. And we got it purely off of that idea. So we were like, Oh, we have money now. So we actually have to do this.

Calla: Time to get to work. That's so amazing. So talk to me a little bit about BluWave Wellbeing, how did the name come to be, all of it. I just want to know everything?

Libby Rapin: Well, that's kind of where I think this whole idea of like submitting ourselves for the business pitches, like the original idea was to bring, oh, gosh, what was our tagline it was, we were bringing advocacy, education, and support into the community as it related to mental health. And so we wanted to share our own stories, of working through our mental illnesses to just give people hope. And so that's why the YouTube channel started was to get people free resources. And so we call that Oh, Infinite Love. And so that's what we used in these business pitches. And we realized that once we started talking to potential clients, the name didn't really resonate, because they're like, oh, what does this mean? It doesn't sound too professional. It wasn't meant to be professional, it was just meant to be a creative name. And so with some of the partial winnings, we ended up hiring a business consultant who was conceptualizing with us, like how to create these business models, what did he stand for? And so we had this massive document with words that resonated with us, words that didn't use mental health, but you know, in some ways, symbolizes mental health in some way. And we wanted to use the concept of water, and how water represents our emotions and how you know, sometimes the storminess of the ways can represent like things in our life that we feel to be problematic or negative, or like, massive, you know, stressful situations, but then all of a sudden, the wave can just like, leave and level out. And we have this calmness in our life. And that's how we kind of we use water as a representative of our emotions a lot. And I don't even know I had done all this research on what different colors represent and all...

Lisa Thompson: Like she did the whole shebang.

Libby Rapin: Like Greek Goddesses that represent like emotions and..

Lisa Thompson: I would be like, Oh, I like this one. And she'd be like, well, what's the representation? Let me look. And I'm over here, like, let's make a decision. It was awesome.

Libby Rapin: So then one day, we put the words together blue wave, and we wanted it to be spelled differently because I don't know just creative reasons. And so that's kind of where the name came from. And we sat on it for I don't know, a couple of days or weeks and our business coach was like, by Friday, you're gonna have decided yes or no. So he gave us this deadline. And so we went with it. And

Leanne: And Libby is like rocking in her chair...

Lisa Thompson: And I'm like, yes, let's check this off!

Libby Rapin: Part of being a Libra is that it's like sometimes making decisions and sticking with it is really tough for us.

Leanne: I understand that. Yeah.

Lisa Thompson: I have to share really quick before you go any further. Libby, I think that it's important for you guys to know, like when we started out as a YouTube channel. But then when we submitted all of these things, we were not doing what we're doing. We literally said we wanted to buy an RV and travel the state of Michigan and help people

Calla: We did the same thing!

Leanne: We wanted a traveling podcast! It's so in right now.

Lisa Thompson: So like, this was the idea that we like came up with and everything. So it's just so funny how we are where we're at today, and we love it. It's the most beautiful thing, but it's so interesting how like ideas evolve to get to where you're at.

Leanne: What are y'alls individual stories? You talked a lot on your YouTube channel about being exhausted and being burnt out and needing this fun factor? Tell me about that.

Lisa Thompson: Yeah. So I guess I'll start with just sharing a little bit about my story. So I worked in corporate for eight years, I loved it very much. But there was something that was missing. And in my last year, I think I think I've been burning myself out for a while. But it wasn't until probably the end of 2018, where it was very predominant. I was just kind of lashing out at people. I just wasn't myself. I wasn't happy Lisa. And that, really, I didn't really realize it in the beginning. And then I went to work on an event. And that was my biggest event of the year. And I was sleeping in between events like I just couldn't like to get my body just like the kind of had shut down. And when I got home from it, I found myself on bed rest for a whole week, I went to work, and I was completely wiped and someone was like you need to go home. And of course, like devastation, I was like, oh, people finally are realizing that I don't feel good. You know, because we tried to hold it up. And we try to be strong and act like everything's okay that I'm a strong one. And so having to go home, but then also not being able to leave my house for a week because I physically couldn't get out of bed. I had hit that point where it is just I could every time I'd get up, I'd be like I need to go lay back down. So I had hit that point where no longer was it mentally exhausting. My body had physically become exhausted too. So I was hitting both ends. And that's when I realized, like, there needs to be a change in my life. And I wasn't putting the tools in place either. If I mean completely transparent, I didn't know that you didn't have to meditate for not 90 minutes or 60 minutes. Like you could just do these short like things like I had all these like limiting beliefs. And no one was teaching me. I didn't know the tools. And so literally everything that Libby and I do and teach we practice. So that's like, the thing is, is I started to invest in myself. And then I wanted to help people that I know, struggled like me, and that acted like everything was okay, when really it wasn't okay. And now I feel like now that I have a higher purpose and understand all of these tools. You can even see it with how I interact with people. I just apologize to people for that year in my life a lot of like, wow, I really wasn't like, I wasn't a good person. Like, I mean, I was but I wasn't, you know? like you just weren't yourself and you don't realize it till you're out of it. So at least that's mine. Libby, if you want to share yours.

Libby Rapin: Yeah, and I have similar. So I was in corporate HR for about 10 years for high-growth technology startups and bought into the work hard play hard mentality and the grind and the hustle. And it's so funny because I was HR. So, you know, part of the conversations we were having is like, how can we get our employees to be more productive, but it was by exhausting them more versus thinking about, you know, how do we make them work smarter, not harder. Like I felt like we were having the wrong conversation. And so, long story short, the reason I started to work on myself was because of my physical health. So I was labeled with Hashimoto's, leaky gut, IBS. Like whatever doctor I went to, there was a different name for it. I had psoriasis whenever I'd get stressed, my entire body would break out into rashes. And so I've always been somebody that wanted to approach health like naturally and holistically but I had never had anything like seriously happen where I had to get serious about researching how am I going to do this? So I started learning about the mind-body connection through this journey. So I had started seeing a naturopath so I was taking all of these supplements, changing my diet, changing my workout routines, and that was kind of our focus. Well then I realized and understood the mind-body connection, I wasn't really focusing on my mental and emotional health. And so once I started, like, it really just started with basic mindfulness practices like practicing gratitude, taking a couple of moments just to do breathing exercises. And I started with Headspace, honestly, and like my meditation practices, and I'd do it for a few days, and then I'd give it up. And then I do it a few days. And like, after doing that a few times, I was like, I actually feel better when I'm taking the time to be intentional about caring for my mental and emotional health. And when I started to get into more of a routine, my physical health drastically changed. And so on that journey, it became also spiritual, as I got further and deeper into this. And so then I ended up quitting my corporate job and took off about nine months to travel around the world. And during that time, was kind of like a soul searching of what do I what do I want to do with my life, like I'm at the prime of my career, I can go back to corporate if I want. But I, through this felt like I was getting all of these opportunities to share my story, unintentionally. And so in doing that, so many women would say, I relate to this, this is me, I didn't realize that, like, brain fog, is a symptom of like depression and anxiety, I would have never said I had anxiety. And now that I understand what it is, I absolutely had anxiety, I did experience bouts of depression. And there was like this stigma around it that I never wanted to admit that I had this going on until I went to therapy. And so as part of that, my journey has just become wanting to share with people the tools and the techniques to empower themselves to take the changes that are necessary in order to help them thrive. And so I started off just kind of doing some consulting within organizations and bringing mindfulness programs into the workplace. And then that transitioned to getting speaking opportunities. And that's when Lisa and I came together and started to put together broader workshops. We do our speaking engagements together now. And so , it just continues to evolve. You know, the deeper we get into this, but my true passion is just helping empower women to take control of their well-being.

Lisa Thompson: And I'll share when you ask the question about play, like what how did like the fun piece? So when we were thinking of the name, or what I think our business coach was, basically, well, there's wellbeing out there, how are you guys different? And so we really had to go to the drawing board of like, when we looked at our journeys, what was the one thing missing? And it was play, it was playing in the workplace, it was playing in our personal lives, it was like this, this opportunity of it's not just fun and games, but like innovation. Like I wasn't able to think outside of the box because I was so physically exhausted that I was just like checking the box off at work. I wasn't taking time to be strategic. I wasn't taking time to be like, okay, team, like, let's be innovative. Let's have some fun with this. Let's think outside the box. So I think we both realize that we're missing play into our lives. And it was interesting. I think one of I don't know who said it, but we said the word play, we were like, play, we were missing adventure. We were missing all the things that we were longing for. Because, you know, as kids, we you have an imagination. You have fun. You think about things. You hear kids, they say the things sometimes you're just like, huh, I wish I would be like that. I wish I could think like my

Leanne: That's my life.

Lisa Thompson: Yeah, we think we were noticing that it's like, man, like, we need to bring the childhood play like back into like reality and thought process in order for people to feel better, and just really enjoy life.

Leanne: I love that so much. How does that leave us? Like, have you thought about like, when that part kind of fades away? Because it seems to for the like vast majority of adults, I would say.

Libby Rapin: I think it's just part of conditioning. As we grow up, we're like, you know, even you know, I have nieces and nephews, and it triggers me so much when I hear people say, "Be a big girl" or "Be a big boy." "That's not how big girls act", you know? And we start to condition kids, by the way, that we say things and there's nothing wrong with that. But I think over time, we take out this playfulness in life. So you know, if your child is running around in the store and acting silly, you know, we tell them to stop. And you know, that's not how we act in a store. You have to have manners or we tell our kids they can't wear the fun costume when they want to go to the store with you. We are like, you know, "You've got to put regular clothes on." Like, I think as we grow up, we just start to take life so seriously. You know, because of that, and at least to your point, like what we realize is that people are not really teaching how to embody playfulness in our life. So when experiences come at us that we judge as being negative in some way, how do we approach that and lean into that opportunity with an open mind a growth mindset? Instead of thinking oh my god, my life is ending or you start to play victim. So we realize that nobody's really talking about play in the sense of thinking of it cognitively. Like we're not telling businesses you need to Add foosball tables and add more healthy snacks and things like that because that's a band-aid. What we're talking about is helping your people get to the root cause of why they're not approaching life more playfully. Because why would we not want life to be more playful. And so we're teaching all of the positive psychology concepts and like social, and emotional learning concepts and things like that within what we do to cultivate high performance, but using the science of play, and so I don't like everything that we read, it's like, uh, no adult ever says that, like, they play enough. Everyone's like, I need more of this. It so resonates with them when they hear what we have to say. And we talk about our journeys. I took life way too seriously. I just wanted to climb the corporate ladder, I wanted to be ridiculously successful. And so in doing that, I didn't take time to do the things that Libby loved. And actually, to be honest, there was a time in therapy where my therapist was like, what do you do for fun? I could not tell her. I made up something. And I know what I said. I said, I play sand volleyball in the summers. Oh, great. So that's like three months in Chicago was when I was living in Chicago. And I was in a league that played like, once a week.

Leanne: Just soaking that all in.

Libby Rapin: I didn't know what I like to do for fun.

Leanne: Yeah.

Calla: I think that's really common, I think I think a lot of people just forget. . So what are some of the steps that you took to kind of find your fun? And what are you doing now? For fun?

Libby Rapin: Yeah. So I just started, when I started this journey, I was still living in Chicago, I was still working in the corporate world. And I started to honestly, like, look at different social events and things that were going on at the time, I was really deep into, like, cooking healthier. So I did cooking classes at Whole Foods. If somebody invited me to, I'm not much of a painter, but I had never done one of those like wine and paint things. So I went and like painted and realized, I don't really like painting, I'm too much a perfectionist, like I'm not there yet. When I was traveling, I did a horse medicine journey, which is a form of therapy, and I came back from that trip and started horseback riding lessons. And so I've just approached, like, that looks really cool. I want to try that. And then if it's like, I don't want at this is not for me, I just chuck it off the box. And you know, kind of like kind of let it go. But I love variety. I like trying new things. And I think I've just allowed myself to have that curiosity. Whereas before, I was super close down to that, and I just allowed myself to spend money on myself. Like, I never spent money on my personal development. I never spent money on these types of fun things like I only wanted to do it if it was going to get me to the next level of my career. And so I found ways to invest in myself, but things that were more in alignment with where I was kind of like my interests were going, which you know, was around, , wellbeing my health, then it was like meditation and became a certified meditation teacher. And that hasn't led me into the positive psychology field. And studying coaching and NLP techniques that I've just kind of continued to follow that and all that stuff are fun for me, because I really enjoy it. But 10 years ago, that probably wouldn't have been where I wanted to kind of spend my time and it's kind of nerdy. But that, for me is fun. You know, and that's I think the thing to understand about the play is that like everyone has their own form of play. So we're not we teach a toolbox of things because you'd have to find what resonates for you like Lisa's not like, as into meditation as I am, though, is it part of her journey in some ways, but she practices very differently, like me, I do a city meditation. Hers is like when she she gets into like a flow state when she's running. And that's her way like,-

Calla: You and Me, Lisa.

Libby Rapin: So Lisa, you want to share what you do?

Lisa Thompson: I'll share really quick with just kind of the bandaid piece and you say I'm like investing in yourself. Libby. I think when I was going through my own journey, you know how people talk about, retail therapy? And they talk about buying things like that. I had more clothes than I knew what to do with. But I realized I was spending it because it was an outlet to me not having to deal with reality of what I was really struggling with. I was spending money on food and alcohol and going out and stuff. But like really what I've learned just like those things that I really enjoyed, what I enjoy is experiences. I like to invest my money elsewhere. Like I think about it all the time when I used to think if someone was to say to me, oh, to work with me as a coach would be like $150 An hour I'd been like, well, that's too much money, but I'm gonna go spend it at the bar. And what I learned is that my priorities were really wrong. I mean wrong for me. Everybody has their own choices. But what I learned is that I had to learn what I needed as a person. And that's really been helpful for me. So, for me a play has really come in the aspect of experiences. So I would say for me, I'm a very fit fitness guru. I love to try everything. So I make Libby go on lots of wonderful hikes. And she loves it promise you,

Libby Rapin: I actually love hiking, she just likes to storm up as fast as she can on the steepest hills ever. And I'm more of a leisurely walk, I want to do it at a space or a pace, that still kind of speeding

Leanne: You like to look around..

Lisa Thompson: I'm like, let's go. Let's go. So I would say that I very much love anything adventurous and like, kind of to the point that Libby'said, I hadn't tried a lot of things, I'm really big on people, when they say to me, "I don't know my purpose. I don't my passion." I didn't either. I didn't know what I enjoy to do. So I had to try a lot of things. Like I picked up mountain biking, I picked up just a variety of different things. And then I've learned well, I can do that. But I don't really want to do it every day. Like so I really had to learn for me, it's more about that aspect. So for me, it's about experiences, trying new things. And completely honest, when it comes to like play and stuff like it's really just taking care of myself because I was in such a bad place for so long. And I didn't know it. You know, you don't realize how crappy you feel when you feel like crap every day, until you start to take care of yourself. So I sometimes find it fun and playful for me to be like, oh, let's try this. Let's see if I can make me feel better, or like those types of things. So I would just say that because of my past experiences, it's helped me kind of invest in myself more. And I kid you not, I'm going to share this from a personal standpoint, but also like as a workshop standpoint, like, I was never a person who would just like dance, you know, like be a very free-flowing person.

Leanne: You're in good company.

Calla: Like we talked about this all the time. We hate it.

Lisa Thompson: But I will share in our workshops, we make everybody dance. And it is the number one thing that we get feedback on as their favorite part. Because really, like I'm not even kidding you, for one minute.

Libby Rapin: Nevermind all the content we put together for you for the other 59 minutes. They remember dancing.

Lisa Thompson: But it's interesting because of what it did for us so like when Libby and I are in like a state of we have to get this project done. We will either play music We will dance or jump up and down. Like it sounds very silly. But it is really refreshing to get out of that fixed mindset of like, oh my god, I'm exhausted to one minute of dancing. [Audio Cut out] One of the things is, is that everybody loves the dancing part of it. And it really shifts their mindset to think a little bit differently. And that's something that I use in my personal life. So I dance with my dog in my kitchen. And it's very little in my like, I don't have to think a lot about it. But it gets me into a new mood and shifts my mindset. So I would say that that's one of the things that I've added into my life because I'll be honest, I've been silly and weird my whole life, let's be honest, but I missed that. I was like that as a kid. I was not like that as a junior and senior in high school, my college years, I was a lot more like, by the book, I have got to get successful. And I, I realized that I was missing out on a part of me that has been longing to be out. You know, this like free-flowing, like, who cares what everybody thinks, type of thing. And I think that in this one minute of dancing type of style, I've brought the playback that I've been missing, only because I've like finally realized, like I needed that for my own mental wellbeing. And that might sound so simple. But I think so many times we don't realize how simple it can actually be.

Libby Rapin: Yeah, and I think the other thing too, like outside of activities, like emotionally, when we think about our mindset when it comes to the concept of play, Lisa, as you were talking, I wrote a couple of things down of just, you know, as entrepreneurs and building a business and especially starting this business right before a pandemic hit. Like we have had to pivot so much. And so we have had to learn the power of controlling the mind in some of the most stressful situations. Like I was even thinking of a year ago, we were working with a partner and it was like everything could have gone wrong with this partner that was providing a service to us. And we were just like What is going on? And instead of getting pissed about it, or lashing out at them, we just had to sit back and kind of say, okay, there is a higher purpose and a reason that this is all happening, we have no idea what that is right now. But how are we going to approach this calmly, in a non stressful way and just kind of allow this to play itself out? And what happened during that time is we ended up changing our business model a little bit, and we're starting to change up and talk about new services. And so in this person, kind of, you know, causing massive delays for us and the project we were working on, it actually worked out, because we start we're starting to shift our model, but we didn't see that at the moment. And so I would just also add that like, when we think about embodying playfulness, it really is all about the mindset of consciously choosing to approach life playfully, whatever that means for you. You know, like, for me this specifically right now, I'm thinking that we had to remind ourselves in that situation, that there was a higher purpose that all of this was evolving, even though we wanted to lash out at somebody. And we chose not to, we chose to be like, Okay, what's gonna happen next? And it was kind of like a roller-coaster adventure of like, where is this taking us? Who are we going to meet? What is this going to mean? How is this going to change, maybe something we're working on, and it just requires so much trust. But I think that the mindset piece is a is a huge piece on top of like, all of the physical activities and things like that, that we were talking about all the tools that you could do to support you. You know, we have to really be aware and practice mindfulness and knowing where we're at to evaluate. Okay, am I showing up playfully? Or could I do a little bit better here? Am I showing up the kindest way? Or could I be a little bit kinder? Like really consciously being honest with ourselves and evaluating that? When you guys were

Leanne: So when you guys were on this, wellness path individually and you guys met up, Did you guys find that you used very similar tools to each other to help kind of get you out of the exhaustion, burnout spiral? Or did you come together and have different things you brought to the table, and then kind of combine it to make what you guys teach now?

Lisa Thompson: I would say, in the most beautiful way, Libby and I are very different. We are very similar. We get all the time you guys look like sisters, are you twins? Oh, we get we get that all the time. So that's great. And we have very like how we're outgoing and our speaking, but we bring very different things to the table. And I think that that's the most beautiful thing. So Libby shared earlier about meditation, mindfulness, yeah, was not practicing that very well, when we met. And I would say that because of Libby, I do a lot more of that, because I've seen it in her life, how it's transformed her. So I've implemented that into my life. And then vice versa. Like, I've also brought a lot to the table of how I practice certain things. I would also share that we both regret, we were both practicing, like gratitude and specific, specific tools that how we were doing that was different. And so we were able to combine it, look at it. And then we are also able to look at reality for people reality of mom's reality of Dad's reality of people that like they don't have two hours to do XYZ. So how do we meet them where they're at? I think that's the biggest thing that Libby and are about is meeting people where they're at and helping them personalize it for themselves, because it's not a one-size-fits-all. So to answer your question, I would say that we were we came in a very different, different ways. But it's honestly the best fit in so many ways. And also, like we have our off days, no one's perfect. And so like when Libby just you know, has a lot going on, I'm able to take over control of things vice versa, like she does a lot as well when I have my busy days. And so I think that the team aspect has been a breath of fresh air for me. But finding the right partner as you know, a journey,

Leanne: We get it.

Calla: We totally, totally get that. I feel like we're mirrors right now.

Leanne: Yeah. You could have asked me the same question. And that would have been my exact answer.

Calla: Exact same answer. So can you talk to us a little bit about how the "Pillars of Play" came to be?

Lisa Thompson: Yeah. Go ahead. Libby.

Libby Rapin: How did it come to be? Well, honestly, we were just sitting one day and we were like, Okay, so like how are we going to help people embody a playful mindset, like What's our secret sauce, like what for us are kind of like the core ingredients to focus on in order to embody playfulness in your life. And so we just started really honestly thinking about our own lives going back to some of the research that we were aware of and knew about and that So we came up with "Mimosa". So Mimosa like the first pillar is focusing on our mindset, and specifically, a positive mindset that is about to invent body and inventor mentality, like how do we show up as like creators in our life, but also think outside the box, not just kind of follow the status quo of motivation? Let's understand what motivates us. And what's our why do we connect to our sense of purpose. So it's about openness and being open-minded to an infinite amount of possibilities. S is about using our superpowers. So our strengths, so a lot of the research shows that if we spend more time focusing on our superpowers, or strengths, we'll be much more satisfied and fulfilled in life versus just constantly trying to develop and focus on our weaknesses. And then A is all about awareness. Like you can't do any of this stuff without cultivating a level of awareness within just the present moment, and like obviously, where you're at. So that's what the the framework is in itself. And so in our workshops, and when we speak, we're talking about this framework, and you know, teaching typically tools and techniques that align to any of those to support somebody on their journey.

Leanne: That is all-encompassing.

Calla: It's so genius. Y'all are like on it. I love it.

Leanne: And who doesn't like a Mimosa?

Libby Rapin: We were like, is this appropriate for the business? One of our keynotes, we call "You had me at mimosa." And people are like, ooh, that's kind of risky, right? Like teaching play in the workplace is risky, which is why we loved it, because it's a huge differentiator. Like, we were just using the word wellbeing well, everyone says to some level, like when you're in this space that they're teaching wellbeing nowadays. And so that's kind of why we liked it.

Calla: It's so perfect. So so perfect. You talked about the risk. What are some of the things that you come up against with your message is met with like a little bit of hesitation or resistance?

Lisa Thompson: So I think when it comes to mental health and mental well-being, there's still a stigma. For sure. I think that also one thing we're learning is a lot of people still don't know what wellbeing actually is. What does that mean? And that's in the professional standpoint, it's the word of the media, it's the buzzword. But a lot of people still don't know what that means. Just like I always use this example of diversity and inclusion, that for a long time was not something that you know, when I worked in corporate, it was just getting started, it was just starting to be like, we need to start doing DNI and I feel like that's for well beingness. So I would say that there's so this like, part that people just don't know what to do. So they're just not doing anything, or they're doing very much the how, I'm sorry, they're doing more of the what so like, giving their people apps to use, which is great starting point, but they're not teaching the how. They're not teaching them how to use things. And I think that is very different. That makes us a little bit different as we teach the "How". We teach you tools. I would say when it comes to play, people think of play as fun and games. We get compared to 'Team Building' Activities a lot versus how to embody a play mindset within the workplace and understanding that foosball tables and stuff are, yes, a form of play. But those are bandaids to the real work that needs to be done to help people with physical and mental well-being.

Leanne: So what is a play mindset?

Lisa Thompson: A play mindset. It's really just like, I mean, basically, it's incorporating all of the M.I.M.O.S.A pieces into it. It's like having that active mind of how do you incorporate and have a different mindset of, you know, adding innovation into your life and utilizing your strengths and being more aware. So a playful mindset is really looking at something in your life and coming at it at a different angle than what maybe you have in the past or checking the backs off and saying I did it. But it's how do you look at something a little bit different and add the innovation into it, add your strengths into it versus doing the status quo of what we've always been conditioned to do.

Libby Rapin: Let's say just to add to that, like one of the other things is a way to evaluate the "Am I embodying this right now is to ask yourself, how do you feel during the experience and after? So if something is causing you more stress if you're feeling more mental exhaustion or physical exhaustion, because stress can, you know, causes physical exhaustion. You know, you're probably not showing up with a playful mindset because if you're showing up playful, you feel lighter, you feel more joyful, you feel more blissful. So it's looking at the results of decisions that you've made based on the experiences that you're having to really evaluate Am I embodying this playful mindset? Because embodying playfulness should make you feel good. You should have a more positive outlook on life. Conceptually, you know, when you're embodying that. The other thing I wanted to add to just back to your question, Leanne, about some of the challenges, you know, I think one of the things is that we still do a lot of education around connecting the dots between well being and the ROI, so like the organization's investment in it. And I think what companies where there's still an opportunity for education, and for people to understand is that well-being directly correlates to productivity. It is not about the quantity of work, it is about the quality of your work. And if you feel like, can we swear?

Leanne: Yeah.

Calla: You can say whatever you want here.

Libby Rapin: If you feel like shit, that will impact your productivity. So by looking at when you start to make these types of investments, and you're weaving this type of education into the DNA of your culture, you're not just hiring somebody to come in once you look out, okay, are people taking less sick days? What are our engagement surveys saying? You know, where are we at, and tracking towards meeting goals, if you have some type of formula or benchmarks, you know, survey to evaluate goals and productivity in that way. Those are some examples of things to look at. Claims within health care, health insurance usage. You know, there are a lot of companies that are starting to measure these things when they start to make these investments and they're realizing significant gains, because they've started to invest in employee wellbeing giving them resources like this to care for themselves, giving them education about mental health, most people don't realize they're suffering, and that they need help, and that the way that they're showing up has been normalized, but there's nothing normal, about waking up and not wanting to get out of bed. Like we've normalized that but that is not okay. Like our birthright is vibrant health. And so I feel like there's, we're still working up against that, and finding more companies that want us to help educate them in that way, instead of people coming to us and saying, We understand, and we're ready to invest, because we believe that this can really help our people because we put our people first, and they have to feel to show up and perform at work.

Lisa Thompson: And I'll share one piece that you just brought up Libby that came to mind was also a lot of people look internally for they're like, "hey, leaders do something for wellbeing for your group." And a lot of leaders still don't know what that means. So they're throwing something together. Versus working with the experts. I remember when I worked in corporate the corporate world, internally, we would try to use internal resources, we would try to just pull someone to do additional stuff on their job. But they weren't the experts at it. And so what we were doing was creating probably more friction, because also psychological safety. Like you think about that, too. Like there's still that stigma. So people are still scared to share certain things. So I think that that's another thing too, is like for people and education to understand that bringing out a resource from outside isn't a bad thing. It's actually more beneficial for not only the thoughts of your team, because they're not the experts. They're literally now having to go to Google.

Leanne: Yeah, and adding more work!

Lisa Thompson: And adding more work to their thing. And maybe they just need to partner. So it's also like understanding that, yes, it might cost you a little bit of money, but the reward long term is going to be back to that employee and customer experience that UI XY and totally affecting your bottom line in a better way.

Leanne: I spend all day trying to get that message across. I do personal training. And it's very, it's hard because it's counterintuitive. People think, okay, you're telling me to work out three times a week, well, that's three hours out of my work week that I could be doing my work and getting ahead. But it's what you're doing during those hours. If you're if you don't have a healthy outlet, or you do feel like shit, and you're not eating healthy, then you're not working at the same level that you could be or you're trying to cope with the shit that you're feeling. So you're scrolling through Instagram, or you're buying things on Amazon and taking that time out anyways. But people don't. You know, it's kind of like you said, you didn't know you felt like crap until you were out of it. People don't realize how much they're spinning their wheels until they put themselves out there and try something different and maybe take a different approach. But it is a hard message to get across. Because just from the the analytics of time itself. It's like it doesn't make sense to take this time away. But it's not about the time. It's about how the time spent, you know,

Libby Rapin: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think to your point, we always have a choice. You know, people say to us, we don't have time to do this stuff. I don't have time to meditate. Well, I didn't either at one point. But I realized that 10 minutes a day was helping and research is showing like a minimum of three minutes a day could still have massive benefits. It's better than nothing. And one of the things that we've built into a lot of our stuff is, okay, what can people do in five minutes or less, you will not experience wellbeing in five minutes. However, five minutes of practicing breathing could totally pull you out of a really stressful conversation that you just came from where your mind is now catastrophizing could pull you out of that, right? And so how can we, you know, build five mindful moments into our day, maybe three times? And to your point, like, Yeah, so like, an hour a day might seem like a lot. But when people start to see how they feel, they start to experience those benefits. They want more of it. And yeah, even if you're like, well, 20 minutes is better than nothing if you can get 20 minutes in and not the full hour, like do that. Like that's still something. But we have a choice. Look at it like you have I don't know if you guys use that screen time feature on Friday.

Leanne: I'm afraid of it.

Libby Rapin: So me too.

Leanne: I don't want to face it.

Libby Rapin: What if we took 30 minutes out of social media every day to do yoga, go for a walk,, do something we enjoy? Like we always have a choice. And saying I don't have time I'm you know, sorry for anybody out there that might be offended by this, but that's a victim mindset.

Leanne: It's a cop-out for sure.

Libby Rapin: Yeah.

Leanne: It's funny that you say that, because I've always told myself, I'm not a morning person, I would press snooze and snooze and snooze and give myself 20 minutes to get out the door. And when COVID hit, I had a lot more time. And so I started making sure I got up at the same time every day and started to meditate. And it was at the same time, Cal knows, I was reading that Wim Hof Method book. And he does all those breathing techniques. So I wake up, and I would meditate. And then I would do the Wim Hof breathing, and then my schedule picked up so, but it didn't matter, it made such a difference in my day that I now wake up an hour earlier. So I have a chance to do my meditation, do my breathing, then sit down, have a cup of coffee, I have a very chill morning, and it has changed my entire day. Entirely.

Libby Rapin: Because now you know if that was something, and that made you feel good. And once we get a taste of what makes us feel good. We don't want to go back and I will tell you, I will never go back to old Libby never ever. Because of how I feel now, I have done a 180. And that is my motivation to keep going. I never want to feel like that again.

Lisa Thompson: And it's interesting because if you look at photos from Libby and me when we were in our early 20s, the inflammation in our faces is absurd. Like, we look so different. And it's, I wouldn't say I mean, we've obviously changed. But mentally, all the things have totally affected my physical appearance too. And I know a lot of people don't realize that until they're on the journey. But looking back at photos like wow, in a good way, it's like into


Leanne: That's true. Cal has been aging backward for the last ten years.

Calla: I was like a totally different person. Like I look at a picture and just makes me sad that it's just like, but I didn't realize it at the time because people were still saying, Oh, you're thin you're doing all this stuff. Like I look back and all I see is inflammation. But a lot of it was mind-stuff, you know for me anyways, the Body Keeps the Score for sure.

Libby Rapin: So what did you do Cal, then to kind of see the changes in yourself physically?

Calla: I mean, I'm still actively working at it, right, I'm in the middle of a Hashimotos flare up myself. So like I understand, you know, work got busy, and I put my priorities to the wayside. But a big thing for me, especially in the last two years was time blocking and living my values. So I really had to get real with what I wanted out of my life and what I wanted to do, and then I had to put it into my calendar. And that meant saying goodbye to a whole lot of stuff and saying yes to the stuff that brought me joy, made me feel alive, the fun for me. So I do I have to block out time to draw, I have to block out time to you know, just sit and be, to have my cup of coffee in silence or with my husband or whatever. And that really started the shift. And then my work changed because I was putting more of that quality time into my work. We were able to grow this thing on steroids that we weren't even planning to do you know? but the right mindset and good health will allow you to do that. And for me, it was just making my time work for me.

Leanne: It's kind of like that hoarders show where someone comes in and they're like, Okay, this clearly isn't working like it's but in your mind, it's uh, you can't see it, but it's like, you've got all this crap that you're doing all day every day and you're just doing it because it's what you've always done, but is it serving me? And then to get rid of some of those behaviors and those thoughts? It's very anxiety-producing and so a lot of people will do it for a few days and do it for a couple of weeks and then go back even though it's self-sabotage essentially.

Calla: Yeah, I lived in that cycle for the longest time, and I still visit, but I'm able to pull myself out, you know, with the right tools.

Lisa Thompson: